Spirituality

Willowbl00 — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:09:18 GMT

Religions that have emerged out of this?:

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== Why we're here ==
*transhumanism - conscious evolution through technology
*our meetings - biweekly/monthly - want to present?
*gnomedex
*layout - panel attempt - quickrounds slowrounds
*'''spirituality''' - Christianity - pursuit of ability, knowledge, immortality, regaining what has been lost.

== Everyone intros ==
*Shaun - science is awesome
*Strand - wanted to take a break from PAX; what is it to be human?
*Budi - wanted to see Lion
*Trevor - reading more and more about h+, almost bought in
*Joshua - interested in H+ and spirituality
*Chris - invited by Rob, sounded interesting
*Rob - researching creative writing, this discussion is most on topic
*Larissa - interested in transpersonal personality; overlap of spirituality and psychology
*Lion - because Willow asked me to be here; extremely interested in an altered sense of consciousness, embraces spirit of life
*Jeremy - student, beta tester for robot revolution
*Kay - Larissa brought her
*Willow - believe the Future will arrive anyway, we need to be aware of it

== Overview ==
'''Lion''' - all about the question of spiritual, what is spirituality. On facebook, friend quoted Buddha as saying man needs more to live than just bread. Another friend in college was intense atheist, didn't talk about spirituality at all, in an aggressive way. Spirtuality is about your heart. Friend said what do you know about my heart; oh, you're talking about my emotions; pills will eventually control emotion. Dismissive of "heart," spirituality. Pascal said the heart as reasons that the mind does not know. Spirituality isn't just about the heart, but about emotion. Ghadi said god is the athiesm for the athiest.

'''Joshua''' - studied religion before i got into computers. Identifies as a technopagan, almost the same thing. Originally I thought that was what I was going to talk about. Weiner (Cybernetics, coined the term) was an advocate of knowing what we want to do, how we want to do it. in a time when people were trying to figure out how to build the best weapons to win WWII, advocate for ethical science. Not enough to just accumulate knowledge in how to manipulate, have to know what it is we want to manipulate. That question is very close to religion and spirituality. Along those lines, I htink that ideas such as celebration and sanctity and prayer and ritual and the experience of the divine have throughout the course of human history. Source of our intimate knowldege of what is worth doing with our selves and our resources. Quite relevant to any discussion about what it is we want to manifest through technology, what we want to become through our interactions and our manipulation of environment and ourselves.
Robotheosis (how robots become gods): sensation/ activation -> requisite variety and knowledge -->> (etc, see chart) God is love, God is beauty - something to be said about the experience of divinity. Omnicient or omnipient is why we consider them gods, the things we look up to, the thinks we aspire to.
The new animism - PKD said something about surrended by all these homeostatic systems which are behaving more and more like they are alive. (notion that things besides humans can have a spirit). Can see a point where we have to consider the spirits of our refidgerators because they have a personality. Questions of the spirit are still relevant.

=== First Response ===
*Trevor - Spirituality and religion. Religion is about dogma, origin, etc. Spirituality is why am I here, what am I doing. Group spirituality that the human race needs, or what a subset needs. Where we might go in post or trans, in space, what do we need as a race, might be different than an individual's needs. Also want to bring up the idea of a religious experiece, and it does have a specific tie to a brain area - able to simulate. necessary? Something we want to preserve?
*Budi - spiritual beings and god. God is omnipresent. H+ is about humans and it's not seperate from god. As we transform ourselves, it is also god that is transformed. Nothing seperate between us.
*Larissa - a large part of what it means to be human and sentient and struggling with life has to do with navigating two important and essential things - we're each individually completely alone (I can't know what's in your head or heart); we're all totally connected - whether we are in our present state or people dealing with this im the 1300 or later being immortal with synthetic materials, how do we negotiate that divide and difference? one thing that's interesting to look at in our current reality is the social media. While I really enjoy connecting, still very private, haven't emmersed myself, tend to err on the side of being more private. See now concerns about young people today thins they were indescrete about, what if they want to be a supreme court justice later...
*Shaun - necessary to seperate spirituality and religion. Religion tends to answer questions of death, origin, and conduct. H+ fails to address origin, offers insight to death, some insight into conduct - religion right out. Spirituality - definitions so far don't differ much from philosophy in generally.
*Trevor - individual responses
*Rob - spirituality is one's awareness of their place in the universe - doesn't require a greater being in the universe.
*Lion - Shardine was a Catholic priest, before him was [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cosmism Fyodoroff]; the common task of humanity is to resurrect the dead. Tolstoy said this guy is awesome, he wants to be a responsible human being. In the future, everyone will be immortal, but taht's only half of defeating death. In revelations, death is the last one thrown into the lake of fire.
*Joshua - religious experience triggered by a part of the brain is a gross oversimplification. ways of inducing estatic experiences, not always interpreted as religious experience. Those usually only happen in religious context. Each experience given context. Hard to throw religion out, though nice to make a differenciation (otherwise they wouldn't have seperate wikipedia entries). Religious biases inform people's responses to life extension, stem cell research, things which "encroach on the domain of god." Main point is that we can't just throw religion out, even if we don't feel that H+ and religion bear each other, religion does inform how H+ evolves.
*Trevor - shouldn't throw it out, as it's a big deal to a lot of people. Fears H+ and religion mixing together, defining H+ goals as religious goals, becoming dogmatic. Moment that you impress religion on H+ it becomes static.
*Lion - religious experience as a phenomena which happens in the brain. My impulse is to ask what backs that. If religion isn't a point of dogma, but something backed by reality, like when you realize that someone loved you, neural pattern, we can hit that button, we recoil, know why we shouldn't do that.
*Shaun - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet God Helmet]
*Jeremy - researcher used solonoids, triggered episodes; words used to describe were semantically similar to religious experiences
*Lion - what about a Table Helmet? We can trigger the conversation, but why are we having it?
*Shaun - along line of god helmet, many ways to enduce different feelings. People who go through it don't just talk about it as enduced religious experience, but as Moment Of Revelation (even though they clearly know it's enduced). Inherent tie to religious language.
*Joshua - intentionally enduce experience all the time. Plan on experiementing with God Helmet when I feel safe about it. I can artificially enduce death in Lion, but that doesn't mean that we're not going to mourn his loss. The meaning of death is something else, when we're talking about these things, we're tacitly, and hopefully explicitly, talking about meaning. What these experiences mean tot hese people is why they do what they do.
*Trevor - so is this something we want to keep around?
*Larissa - Sufi model, way of talking about intimate relationships, Rumi etc talk about the divine being beloved. Each person in the relationshp can see their beloved as divine, see that person in that context of love and honor. A great deal of what we see as spiritual longing is this attempt to get over that existential lonliness in that way, only within our own persons. God Helmet is still totally within ourselves. When i've taken part in rites, it's marvelous to feel that sense of connection, when we talk about other peole and the universe. Where are we, in H+, putting our attention on a vast continuum? God Helmet perfect way to talk about what exists now. what is a logical extention. How will we ensure we ensure our individualities with all our connectedness?
*Strand - want to talk about the definitional part of spirituality. Find it very interesting that, when we speak about spirituality, we have to speak in metaphor. God is love, things are alive, divine as beloved; metaphor because they exist on the boundaries of our shared conceptual maps. Difficult to share concretely because they exist in the abstract, and not even a set area of the abstract. Indicates that one element of spirtuality is indescribable or indeciferable.

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality Wiki def of spirituality]

== Is spirituality something we want to preserve? ==
=== First Response ===
*Shaun - the idea of intentionally enducing things as a way to be H+ is spot on
*Strand - thank you for wiki, all spirituality is value with practice at its core, something i can get on board with as an athiest. Like yoga.
*Budi - knowledge has already expanded exponentially. Important thing about we cannot talk about something and seperate god from it; we have to talk about origin, death, etc
*Trevor - of the goals you mentioned, with maintaining spirituality; goal many people can assume, but not sure it's a goal of everyone, and of posthumanism specifically. Feel deep desire to be connected to those around him, will increase as we increase our ability and means to be so. ways to increase spirituality among everyone, way to be shared, interesting ties.
*Joshua - the interwebs are increasing our ability to communicate, but seeing a lot of continued emphasis on individuation, that's the answer to the borg ending. we're facilitating people making what they want to make, how they want to live, without fucking over the guy next to them, in fact while intimately including the guy next to them. I don't know how that ties to spirituality. Issue I take with religion is the conformity of religion, the homoginy. Recogize aspect which don't include that. Jung, Sagioli were able to have a religiosity, have respect while maintaining a stong value in individuality.
*Chris - glad we got back to spirituality and the definition. Religion is man-made, spirituality is not. More and more interconnected through technology, yet some people are not connecting in that way; what about the digital divide, connect to those who aren't on this system.
*Rob - Question is irrelevant, humans will continue to develope a sense of spirituality, whether or not the H+ thinks its worthy of preservation. Joshua, please make robotheosis available for later. Relgions that have emerged out of this?
*Larissa - definitely want spirituality to preserve and grow. For some of us, there will be a concern that an experience is something we might define as "real." Fantastic to put a God Helmet on, have internal experiences. Not going to have the same pleasure as drawing down the goddess or a weekend retreat. perception and individual struggle, really hard to define. Different studies of putting sensor on the heads of Buddhist monks, waves are different. Sensies - going to the movie, but not just in 3D but tying to a character, experiencing their experiences.
*Lion - Rob took what I was going to say - wherever you have a mind, you will have spirituality. If you fight it, you're doing it for spiritual reasons.
*Trevor - neural network you build doesn't have to be spiritual.
*Lion - every mystical tradition all say "don't be an experience seeker". There is a reason for that.
*Trevor - what is the reason?
*Lion - it has to be based in the real. Tears are in response to something, you feel bad for a reason.
*Larissa - the struggle and quest are important, not just getting the answer
*Jeremy - spirituality is deeply ingrained in human ability to think, our creativity, what are we struggling to do with H+? Make something better, probably. That's something important. Spirituality has a lot to do with that as well. Countering our goals if we try to remove it.
*Sung - spirituality is distilled essence, like Dharma or life. It's first finding the most essential thing, and then experiencing in remote perceptual agreement. H+ is related, trying to bridge between atheist and transhumanism is. Sense based humanity, then we have to know a sense of life, expand concet of truth, and build on that. Expand concept of reality, building things. I have dedicate a group so I can deomonstrate this with that.

* Wikipedia definition of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion Religion], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/transhumanism Transhumanism].

=== Fast Round ===
*Strand - lion and larissa's discussion interesting. Concern that an experience is "real" - do new artificial methods have the same impact as old ones? medium has a lot to do with it. Amusing ourselves to death. Billy Graham vs Presbyterian - much overlap. how we experience spirituality. nothing is more artificial than something else. Coke claims to be real.
*Budi - all interconnected. Religion and spirituality have belief and hope. H+ has we defeat stuff, we can heal ourselves, do what we want. We can make the job of the Gods ours. Instead of expecting something to happen, we make it happen.
*Trevor - Lion's point that any entity with rational has spirituality, can't be drummed out. Not entirely sure or that it (or converse) are provable. More aware of our spirituality as we start to determine our evolution. Taking a conscious effort to maintain, to bake into whatever form we take, does give us meaning, so we're not one big autistic toaster.
*Joshua - I liked your point about things being grounded and real, nothing remarkable to say to that. Artificiality is a hot topic in H+. Something I deal with a lot in multimedia ritual design. Want to talk more about it.
*Rob - H+ on wiki is about addressing our physical and mental limitations, our spiritual and ethical limitations are just as important to address
*Larissa - don't want to be plugged into the Matrix - H+ talks about augmenting, if we're all "The One", even if we know it's not "real," if we're all interacting on that knowledge, awesome.
*Lion - if you study and learn calculus, there's a great "aha" when you finally understand derivatives. You can probably created an "aha" devise, doesn't mean you understand calculus. Jesus said "judge them by their fruits." even if you have induced religious experiences, you might still be a dick.
*Jeremy - thought about the matrix thing when I first saw the movie, what's so bad about being plugged into the matrix if the life is better than what they would otherwise have. only issue is that you're being exploited for something. "hows that steak taste?" "better than gruel."
*Shaun - ethics and ethicism, who thinks they're unethical? who thinks they need an augmentation on that? regardless of what other people think of them. Experience as internally, still good, connectivity, not as much.
*Sung - when something is individually true, collectively should have ability to create other truths. Undermines ethics of society, destroying itself at foundation. Evolving into more beauty.
*Sakura - no comment
*Willow - ethics are something that society imposes on other people, watch [http://www.samharris.org/page/ted_talk/ TED talk].
*Shaun - measurable improvements are not ethical improvements.

== Religions that have emerged out of this? ==
*[www.universalimmortalism.org/ Universal Immortalism]
*[transfigurism.org/ Transfigurism]
*[http://www.damanhur.org/ Darmanhurians]
Lion - Mormons believe in afterlife, people become gods, have ceaseless creation. So much like H+. Have really radically different views than other religions. Author of BSG is Mormon, many of these questions address in Caprica. See resurrection, death, many vs one. Arther C Clark wrote ...Last Days, allows people to look into the past. All the secrets of the past are revealed. Universe almost crashes at crucifixion because so many people watching. Beher wrote xx, explores. What Scifi, H+ers are reading. Oroson Scott Card is a Mormon. Universal Immortalism are more secular, more like the Russian Cosmist. Only reason I don't belong is because you have to have a cryogenics registration. To me, if you take the orientation that you're going to know someone forever, even after a casual acquaintance. That is a radically different approach than what we do now. I struggle with idea of wanting to live forever. Not just about I want I want I need I need, the core is very different. Darmanhurians are most fascinating people on the planet. 1k in Italy, building new humanity out of imagination. Amazing people. Their future visions are transhumanist, see cyborgs spaceships a humanity continuing to grow and develop. These things are not so far apart as people might think.

== Closing Round ==
*Strand - delightful to hear speculative and D
*Budi - see Sung and Lion again, how we just come back and connect again!
*Sung - spirituality and H+ is very important, very related for me, want to be the first official Transhuman on Earth. Need your support, be very enlightening, want to DO, be the first official Transhuman.
*Trevor - reiterate the topic of the meeting, didn't seem to connect a lot to me. After discussion, if we have a hand in the architecture, must build in spirituality of some kind. Becoming one of the most important things.
*Joshua - I'd be happy to be a spiritual mechanism engineer. Doesn't pay shit, but so rewarding.
*Larissa - glad this was my intro, think if it had been in the regular context would have just throught of as cold, not engaging. And Jigsaw! not just about making, but about intellectual discussion.
*Lion - Trevor, i hear your point and agree with you.
*Jeremy - Neon Genesis, genestic ontologist. Interesting discussion. Get to see where it leads?
*Willow - I like the new format. Agreement from group.

Stimulus Wiki:Current events

Willowbl00 — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 04:07:08 GMT

Next Meeting:

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	Upcoming meetings can be found via the [http://www.jigsawrenaissance.org/events/upcoming/ Upcoming Events page] on [http://www.jigsawrenaissance.org Jigsaw]'s website.		Upcoming meetings can be found via the [http://www.jigsawrenaissance.org/events/upcoming/ Upcoming Events page] on [http://www.jigsawrenaissance.org Jigsaw]'s website.
		+
		+	== Proposed Topics ==
		+	*Erasing your past - next conversation
		+	*Sensies, avatars (real vs avatar)
		+	*Individual and connectedness

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	11/20/09 : [[Music]] : Harlen led on digital versus analog, impersonal and personal instruments : [http://imul.us/podcasts/Music.mp3 Audio]		11/20/09 : [[Music]] : Harlen led on digital versus analog, impersonal and personal instruments : [http://imul.us/podcasts/Music.mp3 Audio]
		+
		+	09/03.10 : [[Spirituality]] : Lion and Joshua talk about spirituality, religion, and transhumanism.

	===Focus on Bodies===		===Focus on Bodies===

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Willowbl00 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:19:22 GMT

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